Sen. Paul Bailey sits down with recently retired journalist Chris Bundgaard and discusses Tennessee’s political climate throughout the ’90s and early 2000s. Mr. Bundgaard recounts his interviews with several politicians over the years and goes into how he remembers the protests on Capitol Hill. Now retired, Mr. Bundgaard is enjoying the much-deserved break from the fast-paced life of being a TV journalist.
Guest:
- Chris Bundgaard, Retired News 2 Capitol Reporter
Transcript:
Announcer: For the politics of Nashville, to the history of the Upper Cumberland, this is the Backroads and Backstories podcast with Senator Paul Bailey.
Sen. Bailey: Welcome back to the podcast. I’m your host, Senator Paul Bailey. In today’s episode, we have with us Mr. Chris Bundgaard, who’s retired now from Channel 2 news WKRN, here in Nashville, and we’re certainly happy to have him.
We’re kind of turning the tables on him just a little bit; he’s certainly interviewed me several times during my tenure here in the legislature. But today, we’re going to ask him about being retired, and also his career as a TV news journalist. So, welcome to the show.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, thank you for having me. And first of all, I’d really like—thought a lot about the last over a year about folks in your area recovering from the storms. And I know that you talked to me, the House Speaker talked to me, and Representative Williams, and I know you’ve done a lot of work for those folks. And I’ve been up in those, as you may know, in that territory on stories, and I really, you know a lot of thought and a lot of hard work, and I know a lot of people are still thinking about them, not only in Tennessee, but I’ve had people—when I’ve traveled, I’ve had family members ask about the tornado victims in Tennessee. So—
Sen. Bailey: Well, thank you.
Mr. Bundgaard: —we’ll get that out of the way. And no, I don’t mean it—that sounds a little harsh when I said it. But really, I have been in those scenes many, many times. A lot of reporters who cover up here at the capitol don’t get out to these places.
We get there and talk to folks who tell their stories. And I’ve always been amazed at when—I mean, I have shown up at places within [sigh] ten minutes after the storm blew away a house, it’s the worst day of this person’s life, and we see that somebody banging on something or trying to drag out, find something, and you show up—sometimes it’s at night—and all of a sudden, you expect them to tell you what happened.
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: And they do. But you have to—you just say [sigh], “Is there anything you want to share?” But you got to be careful. And, not only is it dangerous, but it’s their property.
Sen. Bailey: Right. Well, I remember the day that we came back from Cookeville. I had flown to Putnam County with the governor, as well as Speaker Sexton and Representative Williams. And when we came back, you were there at the airport, as well as some other journalists, to meet us.
And it was such an emotional day because we had seen such devastation. We’d also heard about and talked with families that had lost loved ones that day. It was very emotional. And to your point, it was after the storm effect and after what we had seen, and then you basically approached us and asked us those questions. And sometimes it’s hard to describe, especially after seeing the devastation that we had seen. But thank you, and I know the people in Upper Cumberland will thank you.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, it’s powerful stuff. And it’s humanity. It’s people’s lives. I mean, it’s just—it’s what it’s all about with politics, in the sense of, okay, I’ve been elected to this office, people are going to look to me for leadership—
Sen. Bailey: And help putting their lives back together.
Mr. Bundgaard: I was talking to [Dawson 00:03:59], who is a young man helping out—I don’t know if his name has come up before in your podcast, but he’s helping you out here—and I was telling him about I have been in places. I spent five years in Utah as a reporter. I did not cover politics per se, but where a lot of natural disasters. Tornadoes in Minnesota, flooding in Corpus Christi, Texas.
Those are all places I’ve been, as I’m working back to your—what I know is one of your questions. So, where I’ve been. But I say those, in each of those stops, I have witnessed really incredible disasters. You know, floods you would not imagine; snowstorms three feet in the mountains. Folks coming out to help each other.
I mean, we’ve all heard about that, the volunteer spirit. People love that about Tennessee, and it really does…you know, [sigh] you throw away all the divisions that we hear about, but when you get on on the ground and you see, there’s no division when some neighbor or some person down the road needs your help. And I was not up in Cookeville, but I talked to you, and Ryan Williams, and House Speaker Sexton as part of that area that was affected. And that’s when leadership really matters.
Sen. Bailey: Right, well—
Mr. Bundgaard: Because it’s your neighbors.
Sen. Bailey: It is.
Mr. Bundgaard: It’s your friends.
Sen. Bailey: It is, and as you mentioned, there’s no partisan divide at that point. It’s just making sure that you help those that are in need get the assistance that they need. And basically, having a presence there and showing compassion, showing empathy, showing that you want to do everything you can to help restore their lives back to normal. But thank you for that.
And thank you for mentioning the Upper Cumberland. And I can say this, that the resilience that has been shown in the Upper Cumberland is evident today, even going through a year of a pandemic. People have put their lives back together, they’ve been rebuilding. And so it, again, just shows the resiliency of the people of Tennessee, and of the Upper Cumberland. So, where did you grow up at?
Mr. Bundgaard: Where do you think?
Sen. Bailey: Well, you kind of sound like you’ve got a little Minnesota background to you there…
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, you’ve been reading. You—this—too—that’s too easy. You could Google, you can find old website. So, it’s interesting you ask that question because when I grew up until about the age I went to college in an area outside of the Twin Cities, my father was a coach and athletic director. My mother was an English teacher. It was a little—
Sen. Bailey: Well, wait just a minute. You said your father was a coach?
Mr. Bundgaard: My father was a coach.
Sen. Bailey: So, did that mean you played ball as well?
Mr. Bundgaard: Yes.
Sen. Bailey: Okay.
Mr. Bundgaard: You really want to go down this path?
Sen. Bailey: [laugh]. Well, now, which ball did you play? Did you play basketball?
Mr. Bundgaard: I played them all. And that’s why one of the things that you have watched over the last couple of years is me [laugh] walking around with a limp, a cane. I don’t think I ever came up here with a walker but my father was a coach and I played basketball, football, track, you name it. I was not a baseball player. But that was an important part of growing up.
Sen. Bailey: And so was he, like, a high school coach?
Mr. Bundgaard: College.
Sen. Bailey: Oh, college. Oh, wow. Okay, very good. And then I interrupted as you were about to tell a little bit about your mother.
Mr. Bundgaard: It’s your show.
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: You can—
Sen. Bailey: You remember that, now. [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: [laugh].
Sen. Bailey: No. So, tell us a little bit about your mother.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, she was an English teacher.
Sen. Bailey: An English teacher. Okay. So there—
Mr. Bundgaard: And she was a reporter briefly, here and there. She was interested in that. And she did go to college, which was unusual during the Depression. She was formative in how I look at things as a journalist.
She always wanted to know things about people, kind of what makes them tick, why they may be a certain way, say a certain thing. And her father, my grandfather, was a traveling salesman selling Post Foods. And I think part of his technique was—I mean, he had people that he would sell to, every year, feed in Nebraska, this sort of thing, and it was all built on personal relationships. I mean, we’re going back, now, 100 years, and I saw that my grandfather talked about it. You know, I would see him as a kid talking to so-and-so on the street in this town in Nebraska where he lived, and I say, “Grandpa, who is that?”
And he’d tell me in this wonderful way that all of our grandparents used to tell stories to their grandkids. Somebody asked me once, “Why do you want to get in and do this and what I ended up doing for forty-two or -three years?” That’s a big part of it. I think one of the greatest questions that ever been asked is one of the simplest questions. The late NBC News reporter Roger Mudd, who was also an anchorman and did some broadcasts, and—he used to be at CBS—but he had a famous interview with Senator Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy in 1980. And it was a simple question. “Why do you want to be president? Why?”
Sen. Bailey: And he couldn’t answer it.
Mr. Bundgaard: He couldn’t answer it. You know that. But it was a really penetrating question in the set, but so simple. And you do need to be able to answer that.
And I’ve put that question to folks. I don’t know if I ever said that to you, but I said it to Bill Lee. I said, “Why do you want this? And I don’t want to hear about what you can do, but what is it?” And he was talking about things like public service, and a need to—a need, I think, to serve. I may have got a few words—but you’ve heard that—and—
Sen. Bailey: But is that a typical answer that most politicians give whenever they’re asked that question?
Mr. Bundgaard: Yeah. You do hear that a lot.
Sen. Bailey: Do you consider that more of a canned-type response?
Mr. Bundgaard: Yeah, and you try and get past that. And let me tell you a couple of tricks that you can—you know, going forward, I’ll share that with you.
Sen. Bailey: Okay. Well, good.
Mr. Bundgaard: The best answers I’ve ever gotten—keep in mind, we sit and sometimes we’re talking in the hallway, formal interviews are one thing, but the way we did it up here at the capitol, you could hear all the commotion and bustle around you, and there may have been a contentious, argumentative hearing, and you might be a little hot under the collar—but I don’t see that in you. I mean, there have been many people, and we all know who they have been over the last ten years or so at various times. And of course, it makes wonderful television. They come out of the hearing and are all mad, and stick a microphone [laugh] in their face and you don’t know what you’re going to get.
And it’s pretty amazing sometimes. But when somebody comes out—what I was going to tell you—and they start giving you this canned answer about this, and this, and this, and then there’s two things. One, I’ve taken a pause—and if there’s other reporters I got to be respectful of their questions, but one of the things I’ve often said to folks, “Oh, come on, Senator. Do you really believe that?” “Well, sure I do, Chris. I mean, good golly, my”—[rwanananana] and then you get a very good answer like that.
So, be careful of those reporters, not that I always did it that well. But another thing is if I’m sitting here with you, and we’re having a, you know—Paul Bailey decides that he’s going to run for Congress or something, and we go up to Florida and we sit down at his house in the backyard and get one of those interviews that looks nice, and you’ve got a campaign, you know, Mike is doing this and that we’ve got you all dressed up, but announcement. Well, and you go through your stuff, and the questions, and that’s, uh—let you say what you want to say. And then maybe I’ve asked you a tough question about oh controversial topics, whether it’s in education, or abortion, or something like that, and we’re talking, and all of a sudden, I’m looking at you like this. And you’re talking like I’m talking right now to you.
And you’re—you just—I just, as the interviewer, just kind of stop and look at you. You make [unintelligible 00:13:07], “Well, yes, I believe that… well, yeah, I mean, I really do believe that.” I mean, it’s this technique. That is, it’s not anything that’s much of a secret, but sometimes a reporter will do that, and they’ll just look at you.
Sen. Bailey: Silence. Just looking at you?
Mr. Bundgaard: Which is awful for a podcast, of course.
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: And I’ve done it with Bill Lee. [laugh]. Now, the person I tried it with once before was Lamar Alexander. And just, when we would meet him, he’d like to meet us an hour away from Nashville.
And I think other reporters up here in Capitol Hill might go, might not. We’d get a call, “Hey, he’s going to talk to the Dickson County Chamber” or the Republican Party up—we’d have a listen to him and he’d give us a nice little speech about what’s going on in Washington. He’d meet with us afterwards okay we’d say, “Well, Senator, what are you going to do about this and that, and Washington, and stuff,” and but, you know, every once in a while it’s, you try those tricks. You know, “You really believe that?” And this and that and stop and he’d look at you.
“Now, Chris. You know that”—you know? And he really was a master politician. I don’t know how well you knew him. People in the last ten years, I mean, Lamar Alexander, think about it: elected to Governor coming in after the stormy period of Ray Blanton.
And he’s 38 years old—maybe 37; I can’t remember exactly—very young. I’d be suspicious of him. But he came into a—loud Democrat-controlled legislature—by far. Very similar to what it is now. I mean, I—this is part of the history that I tried to learn when I came here, started coming up here a lot in the ’90s.
But think about that. This is—I mean when you were growing up—and you are from Sparta and that all—that’s where you’ve always been right? I don’t want to get into this too much about you, but you remember when this state, it’s hard to believe, just 20 years ago. Heck, you might have even voted for Al Gore. You don’t have to answer because this is your show as you’ve remind them many times.
Sen. Bailey: [laugh]. So, when you came to Nashville, did you come to be a Capitol Hill reporter?
Mr. Bundgaard: No.
Sen. Bailey: Oh, where. So, were you just basically a news journalist? And did you come to work for WKRN at—
Mr. Bundgaard: Yes.
Sen. Bailey: —that time? So, your career in Nashville was strictly with WKRN?
Mr. Bundgaard: No.
Sen. Bailey: Oh, okay.
Mr. Bundgaard: Sound like I’m in a courtroom. No, I came here. It—I… had differences with the management in 1987. I was much younger and full of myself and… was kind of caught up in a newsroom struggle, which was two alpha guys are trying to decide who was going to run a newsroom, who was the NBC affiliate out there. I was kind of aligned or perceived to be with the guy who lost the struggle. [laugh].
Sen. Bailey: I got you.
Mr. Bundgaard: Anyway, he ended up being a news director here—very talented individual named Bill Lord—and really brought some—Bill was—we’re going back into the ’80s and early ’90s. But he hired me as what’s called a 10 o’clock newscast producer. I was in charge of it. I was not doing what I was doing. But I always had an interest in politics. I mean, it was what we talked about from time to time at home, and among our friends.
Sen. Bailey: In what year did you start covering the Tennessee legislature?
Mr. Bundgaard: It was about ’94. I was very involved, being at events covering the 1994 election, which was very significant in Tennessee. Bill Frist won a Senate seat, coming from nowhere, after a very contentious primary that involved a certain person named Bob Corker—and this was ’94—and of course, Fred Thompson, who had real—well, I think everybody knows he had real star quality, and they know the reasons why. He tall, good looking, drawl, that kind of stuff.
But boy, he was in the toilet. His campaign, six weeks out, I ran into him at a party on a Saturday night, at a place that’s now demolished downtown. I mean, we’re talking—think about this; a guy running for US Senate in 1994 and he’s at a reporter’s party on a Saturday night. Shouldn’t you be out campaigning?
Sen. Bailey: Absolutely.
Mr. Bundgaard: He wasn’t doing it. And I said, “Well.” You know, I probably had a beverage or two at this party as we might have. I can’t remember anything else about Fred other than just looking real hangdog, frankly.
And the most uninspired candidate at the time. But somehow, somebody said, “Hey, maybe you should drive around in a red truck and kind of reenergize yourself.” He also handled himself very well in the televised debates, if I remember correctly. And I think that inspired him, and he had some very good people around him that kind of repackaged him. And there were some, I think, some real missteps by the Democrats at the time. But anyway, all of a sudden, Tennessee went from having two Democrat US senators to having two—
Sen. Bailey: To having two Republican.
Mr. Bundgaard: Yeah. But again, ’94, that was still a time when it was overwhelming, Democrats. Republicans were not powerless, but they worked with Democrats, believe it or not.
Sen. Bailey: Right. So, I’m assuming then the Sundquist was the first gubernatorial—
Mr. Bundgaard: Yes.
Sen. Bailey: —administration that you—so that was probably interesting, especially during the second term when Sundquist really pushed for the state income tax. So, I’m assuming you’re a reporter on Capitol Hill, and there was definitely a huge push within the legislature to pass the state income tax. So, I’m assuming there were several legislators that were interesting to be interviewed during that time.
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, yes. And keep in mind that this is also—we’re coming up on the 20th anniversary of a lot of these events. I mean, you’ve seen the pictures. You saw the news stories. We had protests like we had never seen before in Tennessee.
Sen. Bailey: That was during the horn honking days.
Mr. Bundgaard: You are absolutely right. And I just—I don’t know—I can’t tell you how many lawmakers of the Republican brand that I have talked to who claimed they were part of that protest. [laugh].
Sen. Bailey: And one comes to mind is now US Senator Marsha Blackburn.
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, boy. There’s a long story there.
Sen. Bailey: [laugh]. Can you condense it? [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: Okay. On July 12, 2001, it really looked like an income tax in some version was going to pass. And I think one of the masterful things that happened at that time was we just called it ‘the income tax.’ Well, it wasn’t just the income tax; it was about redoing the state’s tax system, which meant that 10 cents that everybody pays, just about anything they buy—with few exceptions; you’ve got a good lobbyist for certain areas, you’ll knock down the sales tax—but the idea was to sort of have a balanced, we will impose a se—an income tax, but we will also lower the sales tax.
Because there were issues there were arguments made about fairness. And I mean, that ship has sailed, but that was one of the masterful things that happened politically: it was just called, “Oh, the income tax,” “Democrats want and income tax. Sundquist wants an income tax.” But there were really people that were very smart, who were trying to go, “Look, guys, this is the highest sales tax in the country.” But on the other hand, a lot of folks, they go, “It’s really unfair if you think you’re going to touch my pocketbook.”
And it’s a selling point. It’s been a great selling point for economic development. You’ve heard this over and over again. Tennessee doesn’t have an income tax. Wealthy people like that.
I mean, I’m talking about football teams, and hockey teams; they like the fact that they [laugh] don’t have to pay it, that sort of thing. But that’s a—that ship has sailed. But it’s the single most defining thing that really changed Tennessee’s political landscape. And yes, Marsha Blackburn is where she is today because of that very issue.
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: I talked to people who ran in that primary in 2002 when she went from the US Senate—
Sen. Bailey: Or State Senate.
Mr. Bundgaard: Or State Senate, very sorry—and she wanted to go to Congress. There were 11 different people running, all very qualified folks. I mean, we had, you know—people had spent—what an opportunity. Some of them now are US former [laugh] former Senate leader Mark Norris was in there. He got no traction. But what Senator Blackburn did—and she became well known—“Oh, you’re that lady who stopped the income tax.” [crosstalk 00:23:18].
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, one of the things that’s—you know, I don’t mean to toot my horn, but there was a deal that was being made that day—again, July, hot day in July, after the Fourth of July—people were trying to put together this, we’re going to pass this and low—and there were all kinds of negotiations going on behind closed doors. Or right out in the open. A lot of reporters had no clue. Well, I mean, you know, I knew who the players were, and I’d been talking to folks, and we’d go out on the side of those—the balcony, and there’d be people in a corner.
You’ve seen this on many other issues now; they still do it. You get there, and they’re, you know… I will vote for this if you—are you going to be the 16th or the 17th vote on this? And this went on all day. And then I got a lawmaker—who recently died in the past year or so—named Jerry Cooper, who was a Democrat from the McMinnville area, Warren County, and he was a real deal-maker, took great relish in it—he, uh, he, kind of, uh, talked like this—and I got him to go on about 4:30 in the afternoon, and say, “Well, Chris. Here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to introduce the income tax. Well, we’re going to bring this bill up that has this and that, and it will lower the sales tax, and we got the votes I think.”
He—very poor imitation, but he was a real interesting guy. But I interviewed him over in the corner. Nobody knew what was going on. He spilled the beans. This is at 4:30 in the afternoon. Put it on there right then. And the photographer who was with me said, “How soon do you think the horn honking is going to start?”
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: And it was really funny because by—again, I interviewed at a four-th—well, let’s say we put it on at 4:30. I said, “Well, there’s talk that the state lawmakers are going to—one more attempt”—and this is July. They’re in a special session to try and solve this issue with the budget, change the way Tennessee taxes its constituents. So Cooper, who was in a leadership position in the Senate—Democrat—spilled the beans, talk to me, and there were people going, “He said—did he tell you that?”
I mean, I knew it, so we broadcast it. And that was really how it happened. And Senator Blackburn—now she may dispute some of this, but there—and there was other talk, but she was seen writing emails—call out the troops—to some of the local talk show hosts. Because keep in mind, had computers back then, but you also have cameras; I can almost see what you’re doing at your desk. I can’t remember where you sit in the Senate, but I think you probably know that by now that whatever you have on a screen that somebody else might see.
But we didn’t know that 20 years ago. People weren’t thinking about that. But Marsha, who’d been a very vocal opponent—Senator Blackburn—she certainly made her reputation against the income tax, and it was very politically advantageous. And decisions were made outside the Sundquist administration from the party chair at the time, a guy named Chip Saltsman is still around. And there were others, and I think Senator Blackburn was involved.
But she certainly played a role, a very large role. But there were reporters, too. And, you know, I—that was one of the things I remember. And by five o’clock—keep in mind, the interview with Senator Cooper aired at 4:30 saying, “We are going to bring this up tonight.” And I don’t know what happened.
I’m still trying to be a reporter and figure it out, but there were, all of a sudden, you start hearing one honk—honk—you know, keep in mind—and then it would, by five o’clock, it was a full-blown roar. Because, again, I think, I believe that what Marsha—she—at some point, she heard that they were going to try this, to bring this up after these—and they’re pretty secret negotiations going on all day long. She was not a part of them obviously. But if you knew who to look at, and there were some interesting people who were involved in this—they’re still around today—and that’s when people came out in riot gear eventually. And keep in mind, this is after several years.
This was the real crescendo, the apex of it where there were the most protesters. That was the night—allegedly—a rock was thrown through the window of the governor’s office. That story is—heck, I talked to John Mark Wendell 20 years ago who’s still just right next door to you guys up there. And you may have part of his district. But Mark, John Mark was, uh—I can’t remember whose office it was in, but he was in there,and he talked about the rock coming in.
And oh, I interviewed Steve Gill, who was—he was, I think he had his radio show on the plaza. It was a wild, wild scene. And then folks came into the Capitol. Yes, there was—by what has happened over the last couple of years, what we saw, unfortunately, on January 6th, at the US Capitol, this thing [laugh] was a picnic. But it was a very large deal then.
And it was on live television. Now, think about this. And they were in riot gear, they looked like stormtroopers, and they marched out, and they were on the front steps of the Capitol, and all these people, and there were signs and there was—it was pretty good television to watch. You heard the cry, “The people’s house,” and they were loud out in the hallway. Of course, banging on the Senate door.
I was right there when that happened. People just, “Let us in there.” Well, [sigh] I can’t go on the Senate floor. As a reporter—I mean, I guess I can, but there are certain rules of decorum. Folks didn’t care.
I mean, there were some who really—there were a lot of people watching this who were—I can remember a couple of lobbyists sitting like this over in the corner, arms across, just going, “This is amazing what’s going on here.” And who knows what’s going to happen here, but it was all in the Senate. It came down to the Senate, whether they had seven—let’s see. You needed seven—
Sen. Bailey: Seventeen—
Mr. Bundgaard: —seventeen—
Sen. Bailey: Votes. Yeah.
Mr. Bundgaard: You kept hearing people saying is David Fowler—Senator David Fowler going to be the 17th vote? Is Ben Atchley from Knoxville? Senator from Murfreesboro, was is Larry Trail?
Oh, I think Womack was, I think he was for it. But it was a real guessing game. And it would have—think about had it passed. I think [sigh] I don’t know if it would have made all that difference in how the political climate—I think the political climate would have changed, but it’s certainly hastened it along. And all of a sudden, people that were considered backbenchers in the house at the time—you know, there was a guy named Ron Ramsey.
I don’t remember Representative Ramsey at the time. He was among the Republicans who was against it. But we didn’t care. We didn’t know who he was. I mean, we knew who he was, but he was of that Republican segment that was going to be against it. But there were a fair amount of Republicans who were in the house who were going to vote for it. This thing did not come down neatly—
Sen. Bailey: Between party lines.
Mr. Bundgaard: Yeah.
Sen. Bailey: Yeah.
Mr. Bundgaard: And I think there were issues with Senator Harper—who was the State of Tennessee, and fellow lawmakers paid respects to her this week—there were questions about what she was going to do. But she would always ask the question, “Well, how is this going to change in my community?” And she would make the argument about the sales tax that is fairly—unfairly hits lower-income people more. I mean all of these, and that’s a conversation for another time.
But again, that issue about taxation, that ship has sailed in Tennessee. And again, you’ll hear, “The income tax wars of the late ’90s and early 2000s.” Well, I was right in the middle of them, in ways that was unbelievable. I mean, have you ever had a Saturday session here?
Sen. Bailey: No. I have not.
Mr. Bundgaard: You’ve not been a part of that?
Sen. Bailey: No.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, Senator, had you been around in 2000, you would have had many Saturday sessions. And it was all in the Senate because the House was ready to go. Saturday morning, and it was just, they would sit, and argue, and get all these presentations, and this is the kind of thing that had been going on, leading up to this, literally, July 12th, 2001. Oh, you know, it—the idea of seeing people running around the Capitol, just did not happen. And there were lots of names that were thrown, angry mob. Well, not really. They were loud, but it really was a defining—
Sen. Bailey: Moment in Tennessee politics.
Mr. Bundgaard: Yeah. And paved the way for people like you to be at the Capitol because your area in Upper Cumberland was about as Democrat as I can—
Sen. Bailey: Oh, absolutely.
Mr. Bundgaard: —remember, 20 years ago.
Sen. Bailey: Absolutely. It was heavily represented by Democrats. And so it did pave the way with the income tax and the stance that a lot of lawmakers in the Upper Cumberland took regarding the income tax. So, when you see on the news today, the protests that are taking place all across America, how do you compare those protests on the income tax that you’ve just described and what you see taking place across America today?
Did you see the violence in Nashville, or did you just see people that were here, wanting their voice heard? They weren’t being destructive, but yet today in these cities, we’re seeing people being very destructive in the way that they’re protesting?
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, I think I described at our Capitol in Tennessee, the people’s house—that was a term I heard a lot 20 years ago—looking at that, and comparing it to, let’s say, what happened at the US Capitol, I mean, what happened in Tennessee 20 years ago, it was really eye-opening, but it was a picnic compared to what went on in DC. I mean, my heart broke. I’ve been in the US Capitol; you’ve been in the US Capitol. We’ve all, despite whatever political persuasion you are, that’s a symbol of our Democracy.
And Democracy is imperfect; we all know that. But it’s the only system we’ve got, and it’s a great experiment [unintelligible 00:35:12] you could go into all of that. But I—there were allegations 20 years ago—and, well, I know what happened because there was a journalist for the Tennessean who was mistaken [laugh] for the senator from Wilson County named Bob Rochelle—and they kind of looked alike—and he was slugged in the stomach. This reporter. Like I said, the brick through the window.
I mean, I’ve had conversations with Steve Gill, who I’ve known a very long time—both old basketball players—and like I said, I interviewed him that night, and he was out, leading the charge a lot. He really was one of the people who was leading things. As was Senator Blackburn. But Steve was on the air. But as far as the violence, I mean, there was—[sigh] it just pales so much.
And maybe we’ve got to learn to protest a little better. It was a good protest 20 years ago. It raised our eyebrows. We were all amazed at what was going on. We hadn’t seen that.
But then we flash forward to 20 years and what happened at the US Capitol. And I watched overnight what happened in Minneapolis because I lived there while I was going to graduate school. Places that burned down that night were places that I used to frequent. I lived in that neighborhood. I did not know the precinct—which was not burned down, by the way, because I saw it three weeks ago when I was up there.
There was a lobby which was very heavily damaged; they’ve moved out of it. The liquor store, I knew the owner or his—which now has gone on to the son—and—which went up. I don’t know if you saw, if you watched those images, it was heartbreaking to watch that, as it was to watch what went on in Washington, DC, which clearly, no one anticipated that, but maybe we should have. But protests are really difficult to cover, and you have to be very careful because you have seen reporter after reporter stand out there live and say things, and there are people acting up behind you, and you become a target yourself. It’s pretty scary. And I think this is a real problem that people have to address in journalism is how they cover these events that are protests.
Sen. Bailey: Well, let—who are some of the most interesting people that you’ve interviewed, political or non-political?
Mr. Bundgaard: You weren’t the first person who has asked me that, and you’re not the first lawmaker who has had something that he did quietly at his Christmas party, where he decided to turn the tables on reporters. And our former Governor Bill Haslam, who really is a very good questioner, and it really is interesting because this guy was governor, and he loves to sit down and talk to people about their ideas. So, at the Christmas party he had for the Capitol Hill press corps, which is all off the record, he decided to ask several of us questions. And the question to me—and he asked it two years in a row [laugh].
He’d forgotten he’d asked me once before—said, “Who’s your most interesting politician?” And, you know, without hesitation, it was a gentleman named John Shelton Wilder, otherwise known as Lieutenant Governor Wilder, who reigned here for 40 years. And to describe him briefly is just almost, it’s almost impossible. But he reigned—with a coalition, what eventually became a coalition of Democrats and Republicans—
Sen. Bailey: Republicans. He can—
Mr. Bundgaard: That’s unheard-of.
Sen. Bailey: You know, the story is, he can count to 17 better than anyone when it came to being elected Lieutenant Governor.
Mr. Bundgaard: And he talked like this. And I remember one time, he got me in the hallway, and he said, “Why you want to talk to me?” I, I, I was going to talk to the Lieutenant Governor about something. You never interviewed the Lieutenant Go—you might catch a phrase or two, but he didn’t hold news conferences.
What he had was a cave, and he took me by the arm one time, grabbed me in the middle of the hallway. Word had gotten back to him and he wanted to give me what I was—what was called at the time, ‘the Wilder treatment.’ And you got—I literally was—and he had this kind of funny look on his face, and he was older, and it was—I was—25 years ago, brand new up there. But I think he wanted to let me know who is in charge and I was dragged back into his cave. And—
Sen. Bailey: Which was his office.
Mr. Bundgaard: Yes, I am sorry. I didn’t—and it—past personnel, security, aides, just he and I, the two of us. “Why you want to talk to me?” “Well, Governor”—as we—you know, it’s appropriate in this state or courtesy, lieutenant governors like to be called governor. Anyway.
“Well, Governor, I was going to ask you about”—I can’t remember the issue or whatever. But it was just—he never answered any question from reporters and he didn’t do interviews. And it was like you had to learn to read Wilder. Mike, could tell you about all that, you probably know yourself. But it was.
And then he would save what he had to say for these meandering, incredible Senate speeches that were just, they would go on for an hour. And they were riveting, and half the time people did not know what he was talking about. But on one particular occasion, and I believe it was during the income tax—like I said, one of the most significant events in Tennessee history, or the battles over that, and what—Wilder started at, like, nine o’clock on Thursday, Wednesday morning, and they—trying to define where he was going to be on this issue. And he started talking, this is on—you know, [sigh] it wasn’t being broadcast then, it wasn’t on radio, there was no audio, except for what we were doing with the cameras. And he got in this speech, and he said, “Last night”—you know in his West Tennessee drawl—“A bed devil got bed with me”—and—
Sen. Bailey: And now wait a minute. He said what?
Mr. Bundgaard: Now, I know I’m saying to just like he said—
Sen. Bailey: A bed devil.
Mr. Bundgaard: —we’re sitting there in the Senate press corps area, and saying, “What did he say? What? What’s”—you know, you could kind of whisper between. We’re behind the glass and you guys don’t hear us and stuff. And go, “The blankety-blank is he”—“That, that bed devil, that bed devil was Uncle Sam.” And it was just—
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: —and he went again. And he would make references to his airplanes, and his cats and dogs like we’re supposed to know who they are. I think he had a name, “That [unintelligible 00:42:47]”—I can’t remember what they were. But it was—this is what people would see when they’d go up to the Capitol.
And it looked every bit like what Hollywood probably thought a Southern legislature—and I put together a tape of Wilder, and Doug Henry, Jimmy Naifeh—this was for Sundquist’s going away party. I’ve never talked about this publicly. You’re the first. You’re getting something—
Sen. Bailey: All right.
Mr. Bundgaard: —out of here—
Sen. Bailey: Well okay.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, and only one copy exists; I have that copy. But it was 40 minutes of all the outtakes and the crazy things that Wilder, Naifeh, oh, I got to remember some Republicans, to be fair—the—[unintelligible 00:43:40], you know, when you’re taking any pictures with a camera, you catch a lot of stuff you never gets on television. You just leave it on the cutting floor as people might—we put together that tape and played it at Sundquist’s going away party, as governor.
Sen. Bailey: Uh-huh.
Mr. Bundgaard: I mean, it was incredible.
Sen. Bailey: I’m assuming everyone just rolled over that.
Mr. Bundgaard: I mean, and they knew I put it together.
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: [laugh]. I mean, but with about four or five people. And it was cutting edge I would be—I would have been fired, I would have been told never to come back to this state had it ever left. And there were lots of—a lot of uncomfortable laughter.
But that was—I’ve joked with people over the years that that was my greatest [laugh] accomplishment. But anyway, it basically defined those Sundquist years, and it was his goodbye. And he was so terribly unpopular.
Sen. Bailey: And so did you ever get the interview with Wilder in all the years—
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, no. I mean, well, I didn’t go in there, into his office with a camera. He just wanted to talk to me, like, I don’t want to.
Sen. Bailey: Do you feel like he was trying to intimidate you?
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, of course. But [sigh], you know, years later, we would—when you guys come out of the Senate chambers, you got to kind of—you can’t escape up there.
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: You got only two doors.
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: And that’s a little bit of a trick to that and sometimes—
Sen. Bailey: You wait until—you let other members go way ahead of you, especially those that may need to be [laugh] interviewed.
Mr. Bundgaard: And then you wait, and you wait, you go, “God, you know we—I, I know that they’ve got”—yeah. There you’ve—Adam has taught you guys well. Or maybe Rick, or there’s a lot of different—but yes, and I talked to Wilder many times. And you go, “Governor”—and sometimes he’d get silly look on his face and kind of walk by you and not make a whole lot of sense.
But I think that was, kind of, by design. And you’re trying to be courteous. But he was—oh, I can’t imagine a John Wilder in 2021, but in 2001, he was as powerful as any individual, politically, in Tennessee.
Sen. Bailey: So, who was the most rogue, Tennessee politician.
Mr. Bundgaard: Clearly John Ford, from Memphis, who was regarded as brilliant, but he also decided that he could do things like consult for companies that wanted a state contract and vote on that state contract. You know, imagine that. But really, there wasn’t much of a law against that. Pretty interesting.
The whole issue about ethics. And of course, he was the real target of an FBI investigation in 2006, called Operation Tennessee Waltz. But John Ford, he thought the FBI was after him for years. And they kind of probably were, kind of depended who was running the Justice Department. Notorious, but he was smart.
And he had a pretty good relationship with the aforementioned Lieutenant Governor Wilder. He would see John Ford, and there’d be some controversy. He’d speed back to Memphis and get there in an hour and a half. And I think he had a trial. Oh, there were so many different issues that were brought up.
But questions about his personal life. And there were reporters, I can remember watching him going down the front in Legislative Plaza hallways, chased, I mean, chased by a reporter. And coming back down the same hallway ten minutes later, another reporter. He kind of half-liked it, I think. And he was—well, frankly, he was smarter than every reporter here, and he was smarter than most lawmakers.
And part of it was he lived life well, but he was part of what, you know, lack of a better term, the Ford machine over there. Vestiges, I don’t think, are—there’s a few Fords left, I think, here and there that have some political power. But he was something else, and he didn’t like ‘the media.’ I mean, he called us a lot of names that we had to edit out and all that. I mean, he’s pretty careful about that. It might have been before or after the interview, [laugh]. But.
Sen. Bailey: He’s one of the most rogue?
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, yes. And again, he was also a charmer. There was a reporter from the station I worked with who was going to cover his committee. And he came up to me, grabbed my arm and said, “I want to meet her.”
And I laughed, and I said, “Well, I’m sure you do what you need to do, introduce yourself.” [unintelligible 00:48:38], “No, no, no, no, no. I want to meet her.” And I says, “Well, I’m not.” Well, you can imagine the conversation.
He held up the committee fifteen minutes so he could meet this fellow reporter who’d come up. And she didn’t know what she was getting into, but she was covering an issue in his committee, and he wanted to go out with her, and—
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: —he thought I could help him.
Sen. Bailey: Right. [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: I didn’t, for the record. And she handled herself just fine.
Sen. Bailey: Well, good.
Mr. Bundgaard: She was a very talented, lovely young woman, and she handled herself just fine.
Sen. Bailey: You’re retired now, and you’ve been retired for four months. What’s the future look like for Chris Bundgaard?
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, I’ve been catching up on things that—you know, I’ve had some termites that I had to deal with around the house and those things would just go undone. You know, there’s—we all have heard about binge-watching; well, I must admit that I’ve taken part on that, catching up. I needed a break. And I think, if I haven’t mentioned it, and I—you know, 68 years old.
Coming up here—State Capitol—off and on for 25 years, as you mentioned. And being a reporter is a very physical job. It really is. I mean climbing steps, chasing after politics. You might be in the middle of nowhere, and lugging gear all over the place.
And I started feeling better the week after I stopped work. And it just was time for a break. And we get to that point in life when you feel you’ve been blessed, or lucky enough, or whatever, and you saved your money, as hopefully your grandparents will tell you, and you go, “Am I going to stand outside, in the rain, in the cold, waiting for some politician to come and make his or her spiel?” Or cover a car wreck, or something, or a fire in the middle of the night? And there are other voices that need to be heard now. You know, [sigh] there’s been moments when you feel your job defines you—and of course, it does. I mean, but it gets to a point in life you want to do some other things.
Sen. Bailey: I got you. Well—
Mr. Bundgaard: Yeah, I know.
Sen. Bailey: —and you mentioned that you’re 68. And you’re a young-looking 68. I hope you feel it as young as you look. Television’s been good to you.
Mr. Bundgaard: And I don’t wear makeup. I thought of that as a name of—I’ve been asked to write a book. But I letting that one—there’s a lot of us who get asked to write a book, and that’s really hard work. [laugh].
Sen. Bailey: Yeah. It is.
Mr. Bundgaard: There’s been people who have reached out, “Hey, do you want to—are you think—right for this website?” Other things that have opportunity. But really, I wanted a break at this time of my life. And I have been fortunate enough to travel over the years.
I have some far-flung relatives in other countries, that sort of thing. So, there’s a lot of things that I did as a younger person that I don’t do now—golf—but retirement is a good thing. It’s wonderful to, sort of, have the idea I’m not facing this deadline. And maybe there’s some things that I might do. I might reinvent myself into something else. So, here we are.
Sen. Bailey: So, if you could go back, you wouldn’t change your career?
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, man. You, you really, you really are making this into therapy. [laugh].
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: Well. [sigh] I figured out as a young person that I am more an observer, and that I enjoy that role describing. Obviously, I enjoy writing, I enjoyed telling a story I’ve heard, or a description. Those are probably strengths more than as a reporter.
Because I mean, reporting really is difficult work. And believe it or not, there still are a lot of reporters who want to get things correct. I mean, I’m talking about spelling, punctuation. How towns are pronounced, as we have this—we just love this little test: you got to learn how to properly say Lafayette.
Sen. Bailey: Or what about Hilham in Overton County because you can always tell someone that’s not from Tennessee because they always pronounce it ‘Hill-um.’ [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: Hill-ham. Is it Pelham?
Sen. Bailey: It’s Pelham.
Mr. Bundgaard: It’s Pelham, not Pell-ham as I heard the other night on the tornader—tor—tornadoes.
Sen. Bailey: I can tell you’ve already, you know—
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Sen. Bailey: —retirement’s already got your slang [unintelligible 00:53:30].
Mr. Bundgaard: Oh, well, I mean, I can almost pass. Always—the rural litmus test is getting out into rural Tennessee, and they can smell you out if you aren’t at least been around a while. And as I tell some my friends who are proud natives of Nashville—which are hard to find [laugh] these days, it seems like. But there’s still a lot of them—or in rural areas, they love to say, “You’re not from around cheer, are you?” You know that.
I’ve done a lot of my best work, I think, in rural areas, whether it’s covering some terrible things like tornadoes, places like Perry County, and how they rebuilt after unemployment hit almost 30% down there. I mean, we really did some good work down there, a lot of people. And they were quite appreciative because too often, you never show up here unless something bad happens.
Sen. Bailey: Final question. And it just dawned on me. I didn’t ask you about Muhammad Ali.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, that’s on my Facebook page, and it’s been there since I got on Facebook in nineteen—nineteen. [laugh]—showing my age—in 20—whenever it started. 2009. Muhammad A—I was in Salt Lake City, Muhammad Ali, it was after his career, and somebody said to me, “Muhammad Ali is going to be”—I mean, this is the most famous person in the world at that time.
More than presidents, I think. Because you have to remember his reach in places like Asia, and Africa. Well, I was in Salt Lake City, Super Bowl afternoon, and this guy calls me and says, “My neighbor is going to have Muhammad Ali there for a Super Bowl party.” This is in a highly Mormon neigh—I—you know, imagine the questions.
Sen. Bailey: Right. Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: Anyway, very long story short, I—“Okay. Are you saying—are you inviting me to your party? Can I bring a camera?” “Well, you know, we’ll have to see what he said.”—he being Muhammad Ali, the heavyweight champion of the world.
Photographer and I were allowed at the party. And he took a few pictures, not video camera, no recording. And it just—he was there because he had a business relationship with this—somehow in his orbit. And it was this guy, he was a Mormon businessman, which is unusual to have a relationship with the Louisville-born African American heavyweight champ. Now, I think everybody can pretty much agree, you did not put those two people together.
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: Anyway. I knew somebody who knew, came over there, saw Ali—he’d been napping—came down. I remember him stretching. He was a little disheveled.
And I got a chance to introduce myself, and he was, he was—it was the start of his, I believe, Parkinson’s, which I could be getting that right. But he had the shakes. But it was his voice that was very, very low like this. And I said, full of myself—1986 I think it was—and I said, “Do you mind if we”—we had the camera. We did bring the camera just in case.
“You mind if we do an interview?” And [sigh], “I’d prefer, I’d prefer not.” He was whispering at that time. I’m not going to argue with Muhammad Ali. But he did, go and there’s some pictures of us mugging as you’ve seen, famous pictures.
And to bring us all around—that’s 1986—just a few years ago, when he died, our news director just said, “Well, why don’t you go to Louisville to cover Muhammad Ali’s funeral?” It was unbelievable. I mean, every major sports figure that you and I have heard of over the last 60 years was there. Even Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I’m six foot three; he’s seven-foot twelve or whatever, seven-foot one.
And it was [laugh] one of the few times I’m looking up and interviewing somebody way taller than I am. He came over and talked to us. He was just wonderfully articulate, man. Yeah, I once wrote a post on Facebook. It’s still out there.
It’s five or six years old. And it was just called, “Me and Ali.” And it recounts that Superbowl afternoon back in 1986. And I just thought, well, it’s not too many people who have that picture.
Sen. Bailey: Right.
Mr. Bundgaard: But then when I went to Louisville to cover—there were so many people. Ali meant so much to that city, and there were a lot of folks who had pictures of that. But, you know, not some kid from Minnesota who went to Nashville and Utah and all that kind of stuff. But one of the images I remember from that afternoon that I always thought was most interesting, [laugh] Ali has this book of Islam that he’s handing out to these little Mormon kids.
Sen. Bailey: [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: And it was just like—and nobody cared. I mean, it was—but think about it. One of the tenets of the LDS Mormon religion is they do a lot of proselytizing—
Sen. Bailey: Right. Yes.
Mr. Bundgaard: Missionary work.
Sen. Bailey: Yes. It’s required.
Mr. Bundgaard: Yes, it is. That’s why all those football teams are so good because they get two-year break and they could get bigger and they get wiser and anyway. But Ali sitting there handing out these things, and these kids, they knew who he was. And he was very good with them.
But he was on the decline. But who knew that at that time? And I didn’t—we didn’t e—I didn’t even do the story. I think we may have run one or two pictures. Wasn’t that big a deal.
In the years later, I just sat down after he died and wrote a little bit, put on Facebook. I really enjoy doing that kind of stuff. I’ve been urged by people to do more writing, and I may do that, who knows, but really, right now, it’s just the whole idea is not to do much of anything and do stuff you enjoy. It’ll hit me again. But really, I don’t see myself going back and doing what I was doing on a daily basis again. I’m of that retirement age. So, I retired.
Sen. Bailey: And congratulations on your retirement.
Mr. Bundgaard: Thank you.
Sen. Bailey: Chris, it has absolutely been a pleasure having you, and trying to turn the tables on you.
Mr. Bundgaard: Well, I think we’ve hit on something and I want a little bit of this if it becomes profitable, but you could do, “Hey, reporters come to me, Senator Paul Bailey. Therapy for reporters, photographers, anybody in the media.” Because I get to ask the questions and you can just let it all out. And you know what, it’s for the people of the Upper Cumberland.
Sen. Bailey: That’s exactly right. [laugh].
Mr. Bundgaard: Here you go. You’re a business guy. Hey, help a few poor reporters. They can come in here and air their souls, vent, all that kind of stuff, and—
Sen. Bailey: Just have a little therapy session.
Mr. Bundgaard: [laugh].
Sen. Bailey: And not cost you anything. You’ve been listening to Backroads and Backstories. Our guest has been Chris Bundgaard. We certainly appreciated all the stories that he shared with us today. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast at backroadsandbackstories.com and subscribe, rate, and review the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. We’ll see you next time.
Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Backroads and Backstories podcast, with Senator Paul Bailey. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast at backroadsandbackstories.com. And subscribe, rate, and review the show on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Thanks again for listening, and we’ll see you next time on the Backroads and Backstories podcast.